Tim Mc Inerney:
Hi there, listeners. Before we get onto our topic for this week, we want to say an extra special thanks to this episode’s sponsor, Tigh Neachtain’s Pub in Galway City.
Naomi O’Leary:
I think this is a pretty special sponsorship because Tim, of course, Tigh Neachtain is an old haunt of yours.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Absolutely. An old haunt of mine. No joke, guys. This is my favorite pub in the world and everyone in Galway will back me up on that, I think.
Naomi O’Leary:
I can actually vouch for that as well, listeners. Because when down in Galway, I have enjoyed many pint, with Tim, in Neachtain’s. So if you haven’t been, it’s a beautiful like old medieval building and it’s got a really good location right on one of the nicest corners of the city. So you can sit outside on the terrace and you can watch all the colorful Galway street lights, or you can go inside to the cozy wooden snugs beside the fire.
Tim Mc Inerney:
It’s a perfect pub, to be honest, in my opinion. It’s got great Guinness. Lovely trad music sessions, you know, always a lovely crowd in there. And it’s got these very long connections with the famous Galway Arts Festival, which is a huge event every summer. So if you go in, you’ll see all these beautiful old art festival posters, which are really gorgeous. They also have a lovely wine bar and restaurant upstairs now called the Kasbah, where you can try loads of local produce or sample a bit of Irish whiskey. And I think at lunchtime they can even send your food down to the pub so you don’t have to leave your pint. So, five stars from me, Tigh Neachtain’s listeners.
Naomi O’Leary:
If you want to drop in, you can find Tigh Neachtain’s on 17 Cross Street Galway or on their website. Get ready for some Irish spelling guys. It’s www.tighneachtain.com.
Tim Mc Inerney:
For more information on bookings at the Kasbah, as well, you can check out www.kasbahwinebar.ie. That’s kasbahwinebar.ie. So, thanks loads to the team at Neachtain’s for their support and it will give me a good reason to go back for a pint.
Naomi O’Leary:
I’ll join you for that one, Tim. OK. Let’s get onto the episode.
Intro:
Hello. Welcome to Irish passport. Let’s do it. Welcome to the Irish passport. I’m Tim McInerney. I’m Naomi O’Leary. We’re friends. Cé he bhfuil tú Naomi? Go hana mhaith ar fad, Tim. This is your passport to Irish culture, history and politics. I’m recording. 1 2 3. OK.
Naomi O’Leary:
Hello, everybody, and welcome to the season finale of Season 2 of the Irish Passport podcast.
Tim Mc Inerney:
We’ll be looking at the complex subject of Irish nationalism. What it means to whom, and where it fits in the wider climate of rising nationalistic sentiment in Europe and the world.
Naomi O’Leary:
In this episode, we’ll explore what nationalism is. I consider who gets called a nationalist and who doesn’t.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Later in the show, we’ll be hearing from historian Aidan Beatty, who tells us that nationalism belies anxieties about race and gender.
Aidan Beatty:
Patrick Pearse, he wrote a pamphlet in 1913 or so called The Murder Machine, where he says the Irish are a nation of castrated men. It really, really graphic language that he uses a bad about deformity.
Naomi O’Leary:
We have a fantastic report about the identities and politics at play in the Republic of Ireland vs. Northern Ireland soccer match by reporter Michael Lanigan.
Tim Mc Inerney:
And later on, Naomi will be speaking to the person in Ireland, who is perhaps most strongly associated with nationalism today. Sinn Fein President Mary Lou McDonald, who talked Brexit the EU and why she thinks Irish nationalism is different.
Mary Lou McDonald:
The politics of our household was always progressive, and was always about Irish unity. We are nationalists in the Irish sense, not in the European sort of xenophobic exclusive sense. Irish nationalism, you know this, Naomi, looks more like South American nationalism. It’s more about freedom and sovereignty. It’s not about exclusionary or supremacist politics.
Tim Mc Inerney:
But before we go a step further, let’s hear from Professor Richard English of Queen’s University, Belfast. I recently asked him about what nationalism means in an Irish context.
Richard English:
I’m Richard English, professor of politics at Queen’s University, Belfast, and among other things, the author of the book Irish Freedom The History of Nationalism in Ireland. I think nationalism is about the politics of community, struggle and power, both an opportunity for us to be at our best as humans and an opportunity for us to be at our worst. There is no doubt that sometimes the clashing of rival nationalisms has led to exclusivism, where if I am from one national tradition, I am excluding others from that kind of community. And there’s also a lot of violence associated with rivalries between different nationalisms. Having said that, it’s also true that the stability and the meaningfulness of many states around the world derives from the things that nationalism gives it the territory, people, descent, culture, history, ethics and so on. And I think if you imagine a world without nationalism as the way in which people identify together, you might have a greater disaggregation of people. You might have greater disorder. And interestingly, some of the most peaceful states in the world have been those where a cohesive nationalism has existed in ways that allow people to feel fairly comfortable about who they are. So I would resist the idea of nationalism as either entirely good and unproblematic or as seeing it as something which is necessarily pernicious and destructive. I think it can be both. Irish nationalism is such a great subject for someone like myself to study and to spend so many years studying, because it reveals a lot of world historical forces, things that are familiar everywhere. But they’re also as with all nationalisms, things that are paradoxically neater. For example, Ireland has been part of the colonial relationship with England for many centuries, but it’s a different kind of relationship from the other colonies because it was so close to the place that was in power. So in that sense, you’ve got greater interaction between Irish people and English people, than you would have between Indian people and England or certain African countries and England. There were things in the Irish story that I think are particularly important. And one of them is, actually, the tendency of so many Irish people historically, sometimes in tragic circumstances, to go abroad. And therefore, that Irish nationalism and Irish identity is something which people listening in the United States or Canada or England, Scotland, Wales or Australia or New Zealand will feel. And in that sense, Irish nationalism, Irish experience is a global thing, as well as being about the island that I’m speaking from, Ireland itself.
Tim Mc Inerney:
There was one thing I really wanted to ask Richard about, and that was the use of the word nationalist in Ireland and especially in Northern Ireland. Because, in an Irish context, nationalist simply means Irish identifying. It doesn’t necessarily imply that someone is particularly nationalistic. But of course, this jars with how the word is used in most of the world. I asked Richard if perhaps this vocabulary has had a distorting effect on how Ireland is viewed from the outside.
Richard English:
I think one of the key things in Northern Ireland has been that the word nationalist has tended to be seen as something involved with the Irish nationalist community that feel that British sovereignty is perhaps illegitimate and certainly problematic. Whereas you could say that those who identify themselves as unionists in Northern Ireland are themselves nationalist. It’s just that they’re British nationalists. So words I would interpret that Northern Ireland’s political conflict as something between rival nationalisms, one Irish and one British. But the term nationalism has tended to adhere to the people from the Irish nationalist tradition rather than the British national tradition. There’s also the complication that, of course, while people are Irish nationalists in Belfast, and in Dublin, and in Galway, it’s been since the partition of Ireland in the 1920s a very different kind of national experience because those nationalists who are Irish nationalists in the north have felt themselves living in a state where they weren’t the majority of where the symbols of the state until very recently were somewhat hostile to them. Whereas those people who’d been Irish nationalists in the Republic of Ireland have since the 1920s been in a state which has been overwhelmingly Irish nationalist in its culture, its history, its celebrations and so forth. So I think what you have in Ireland — and I think this is a really important point — is that there is a series of very different national and nationalist experiences, depending on which parts of the island you’re in. And also it changes over time.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Do you think that there is a misunderstanding about this in the UK — in particular in England? I’ve kind of gotten the impression a few times speaking to English people that — understandably enough, considering the language that’s used — they presume that nationalists in Northern Ireland are just simply very, very patriotic people who are causing problems because of that. The term has led to misunderstandings?
Richard English:
I think it has. And I think there are two real problems, Tim. I mean, I think one is that most people in Britain, perhaps understandably, find Ireland somewhat complicated and difficult to engage with, and so they know far less about it than I think would be ideal. I think in the run up to the UK Brexit referendum a couple of years ago, you saw it was far too little discussion of Ireland, north or south, and I think that’s partly because people did want to engage with it. I think the other thing is that quite often the eye catching violence of some nationalists, for example. But I wrote a book called the IRA some years ago. The IRA became very well-known. But of course, most people, you know, that weren’t saying they supported the bombings and shootings by the IRA. It’s just that those are the things that were on the news. So I think that’s partly, in the relationships between Britain and Ireland, while there’s a lot of intimacy between them, there’s a lot of misunderstanding. But I think one of the things is that the violence on all sides — whether it’s by unionists or loyalists on one side or Irish nationalists or republicans on the other — people can focus on that and could exaggerate the aggression or the hostility of people.
Tim Mc Inerney:
I think that’s a really good point that Richard made there. In Northern Ireland, you know, both nationalist and unionist movements are essentially nationalist movements, but only one of them is like labled in this way as nationalist. And that’s a really interesting dynamic, I think, in the context.
Naomi O’Leary:
For sure. There’s a lot to unpack and something that is occurring to me like as we’re going through this, is how much of a kind of an echo of the situation there exists in Scotland right now with the Scottish National Party. And, you know, its unionist counterparts. I’ve I’ve often gotten the sense that British people feel that the UK is somewhat above nationalism because they exist in a union of more than one nation. But of course, when it comes to situations like Northern Ireland, it doesn’t actually mean very much because, of course, the history there is of one sovereign state vying with another sovereign state for territory, which they both do understand is rightfully theirs. Now, Fintan O’Toole, the commentator, has often described Brexit as being all about a kind of unspoken English nationalism, which is asserting itself and yet somehow also claiming itself as British. So, kind of claiming to speak for some greater entity than just England, even though it is a largely English phenomenon. So there are, of course, as well, straightforward British nationals, and many of them have a supremacist idea of Britishness, which is, you know, would be very affectionate towards the history of empire, for example. And that would include groups like the BNP, which, of course, stands for British National Party. You could say that very name indicates that a union can, of course, espouse nationalist ideology, too.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Yeah, that’s really interesting, actually, how our nationalism maybe, you know, it doesn’t have to be so closely associated with the idea of the nation. But there is actually an enormous irony here, Naomi. Even though I feel like I’m always pointing out enormous ironies on this podcast. You know, like during the Troubles — and to some extent, still — there was this very entrenched implicit narrative in Britain of, I suppose, like, childish nationalists in Ireland — on both sides of the divide — who were killing each other while like sensible Britain was beyond all that. It was, you know, a quote unquote, “mature nation”.
Naomi O’Leary:
Yeah, I definitely recognise that. That self-identity and notion that Britishness means, you know, reasonableness and almost gentleness. It’s you know, it’s really claimed by the culture as being part of what Britishness is. Kind of tea and cakes, Marks and Spencer and civilized debate, and all that. And kind of, you know, no, no extremes here, please. It’s a very interesting self-image, given that there are only 22 countries in the world which Britain hasn’t invaded.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Yeah, right. Absolutely. And then in, like, on the other side of this, if you think of Northern Ireland in real terms, like the Northern Irish peace process was actually all about making room for multiple identities and multiple national ideals to exist peacefully in a single space. And it’s kind of amazing that they managed to do it. Like, very few places on Earth have managed this. So in terms of nationalism, Northern Ireland is actually a really interesting case study. It’s kind of, like, almost a poster child for a place that really has risen above old nationalist tropes of identity. And then, like, at the same time, just as this is a kind of flowering in Britain, which was supposed to be so mature and reasonable and gentle, as you say, people have descended unprovoked into this weird, caricatured like nationalist nostalgia fest. And they can’t seem to get out of it by any means without, you know, anything in the way.
Naomi O’Leary:
Yeah, it’s definitely one for the arm chair psychologists and the historians, perhaps. But I do think it has resonance, you know, in comparisons with the republic, you know, with Ireland as well, because with the recent centenary celebrations that we had, like they were all about kind of reckoning with the romanticised image that we’d had of our past. And kind of saying to each other that actually like lots of the stuff done by people who are considered national heroes was wrong.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Yeah, sure. Like, for instance, there was loads of emphasis in those celebrations put on like all these casualties who never made the choice to die for Ireland. This is this like collateral damage of what we think of, romantically, as past nationalism.
Naomi O’Leary:
Yeah, there was definitely the sense of, like, reassessing the evidence where we can and trying to build a more complex picture. A well round, a more well-rounded picture. And that we don’t really need to choose who the goodies and the baddies are. You know, like, we can accept that there is loads of shades of grey here going and there’s not just black and white. It is odd then to suddenly see the indulgent nationalist rhetoric that’s coming out of the Brexiteers, for example, about Winston Churchill and the Spanish Armada and the Blitz and God knows what. It is quite discordant when you come from a context of what’s been going on in Ireland. It’s just quite out of sync with the period of historical soul-searching that we’ve gone through.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Richard English told me that, with this whole Brexit movement, which is being fuelled by this insular, old fashioned kind of rise of nationalism in England, mostly, this could spell an end for the cultural plurality that people in Northern Ireland have been working so hard for. So let’s hear from him again.
Richard English:
I think until Brexit, Northern Ireland had become a place where national identity was so ambiguous that you could kind of choose something you were comfortable with. So, for example, if you were an Ulster unionist, you could say, well, there’s a border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. Northern Ireland’s in the UK. I’m comfortable with that. If you were an Irish nationalist in the north, you could say, well, the border in some ways is somewhat meaningless. There are no border checks. You could go over without really knowing when you’ve crossed the border. You could probably use euros or both sides of the border region. So so there was a nice ambiguity which allowed people to have both passports or either, to see the border how they wanted to, and they could have rights enshrined for both communities in the north. So it’s not a post-nationalist community. It was certainly a community in which two nationalisms — and maybe others, as well — could feel comfortable. I think Brexit in some ways has changed that because it’s angered nationalists, most of whom are pro-European Union and feel a big drug out of it, mostly by English votes. And it’s re-introduced the prospect that the border between Northern Ireland and Republic of Ireland might become more visible, more hard, more difficult to negotiate, and certainly more difficult to avoid. So I think what we’ve had for a period from 1998 with the Good Friday agreement through till the referendum in 2016 was a productive ambiguity of identity, if you like, of opportunity. Whether we can sustain in the Brexit period is, of course, the great challenge that we’re facing at the moment. I hope we can, because I think what I would like to see in the north is the opportunity for people of whatever national tradition, whatever passport, to feel that the place is legitimate and fair and comfortable for them. Brexit, whatever its merits, makes that more difficult, I think.
Naomi O’Leary:
Okay, so Tim, let’s lay out the evolution of nationalism in Irish history because it over time has changed and taken many forms, isn’t that right?
Tim Mc Inerney:
Yeah, loads of forms. Absolutely. It’s it’s actually a bit mind boggling when you lay it all out on the table. I thought this would be quite simple, but it’s actually quite complex. So let’s just take a chronological view of this. So I’m gonna go back and begin with an old favourite of the pod — 1798.
Naomi O’Leary:
We do love our 1798.
Tim Mc Inerney:
We do.
Naomi O’Leary:
So, of course, to remind anyone who’s forgotten. Never forget. Massive uprising against British rule. Huge losses on the Irish side resulted in Ireland being inducted into the UK in 1801.
Tim Mc Inerney:
So the rebels of 1798, as you said many times, were famously inspired by the French Revolution. And the French Revolution in many ways marks the beginning of what we talk about today as nationalism. So the 1798 is a really good example of this new kind of ideology because, for instance, one of the rebels’ primary aims was to privilege the idea of nation above religion. So in this context, liberty, equality and fraternity among all Irish people instead of Catholic versus Protestant, which would have been a lot more common in the centuries before. This abstract notion of a nation really starts than in the 19th century.
Naomi O’Leary:
Religious discrimination at that time was being used to control political dissent in Ireland. And that is what this idea was being used to kind of upend and target. The rebellion was organized by large part by Protestants in Northern Ireland who later worked in collaboration with Catholics.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Yeah, and that’s a really interesting factor of that rebellion. But of course, the 1798 rebellion failed terribly. And then when Ireland was inducted into the Union with Britain in 1801, just a few years afterwards, this religious dynamic totally changes. Richard English pointed out a really good point to me in this actually that under the new union, under the new United Kingdom, those Protestants in the north who had rebelled before were suddenly part of the majority. So, their interest now actually quite logically lay with the Union. So from that point on, you see Irish nationalism kind of becoming removed from the north and becoming a feature primarily then of the mostly Catholic south.
Naomi O’Leary:
But there were still Protestant nationalists in the south nevertheless, right?
Tim Mc Inerney:
Yeah. So in the south, that old idea of Protestants and Catholics working together in fraternity remained really central. Of course, the Protestants normally had most of the money and the Catholics were the massive majority. So it had a dynamic of its own, and it stayed like that right up to independence.
Naomi O’Leary:
So not long after the Act of Union of 1801, there was, of course, the Great Famine, which was another huge defining moment for political nationalism in Ireland.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Indeed, the famine, you know, it was fired things along at a much greater pace. It inspired an explosion of anti anti-English, really, rage not only in Ireland, but also among, of course, the millions of Irish emigrants in America and elsewhere, who were a growing force, you know, throughout the 19th century. And they all blamed Westminster for this catastrophe. So you get groups like the Young Irelanders emerging in the 1840s or the Fenians later in the 1860s. A lot of launched rebellions and failed rebellions and a lot of people getting deported as prisoners to Australia and stuff like that.
Naomi O’Leary:
This is also a period where we get lots of the classical, you know, Irish nationalist symbols. So, for example, the Irish tricolour, which was a gift to the rebels from some French sympathizers.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Yeah. Yeah, that’s I think that’s interesting. That’s in 1848 again. And you still see the influence of French revolutionary politics there. But anyway, let’s move on to our next big moment. This is the big daddy, the Irish cultural revival at the turn of the 20th century. And this is the point where you really see nationalism building up this political momentum. And in lots of ways, loads of people were expecting Irish independence to come about in one form or another around this time. What’s interesting from our point of view, here, is that as nationalism was growing, you can see all these different versions of it. So, you had cultural revivalists on the one hand who were promoting the Irish language and culture as a means of reclaiming national identity. You had people like Parnellites, who were, you know, perfectly happy with home rule, which would be a kind of devolved status for Ireland under the Union. But the way they talked about that was, you know, very nationalistic. And then you had the more radical republicans like the Irish Republican Brotherhood, or IRB, who were planning armed rebellion in order to re-establish Ireland as an independent nation. And alongside these people, you have countless other political factions. You have socialists. You have feminists. You have monarchists, even. Everything under the sun. All of them were projecting their political ideals on this idea of an independent Irish nation.
Naomi O’Leary:
You can get a taste for some of those ideals, of course, in the Proclamation of the Irish Republic, which was read out in Dublin, of course, in the Easter Rising of 1916. And it remains something of like a soul document of the Irish nation. It claims the right of the Irish people to the control of Irish destinies. And it name checks the diaspora and also European allies and backing this claim. And it cites a long history of rebellions in Ireland every generation as asserting that right. And you can hear the progressive aims of the rebels most clearly in one sentence, which as the republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, cherishing all children of the nation equally, and oblivious of the differences carefully fostered by an alien government, which have divided a minority from the majority in the past. So you can really hear those aims of the 1798 rebellion being stated quite literally again, that, you know, you would replace, you know, the name of Protestant and Catholic and Dissenter with the single name of Irishman and create equality by by, you know, destroying religious discrimination. And a new nation would emerge from this. What you have in the in the documents as well, though, is a close association between the idea of nationhood and the assertion of military force. And that’s very much of its time and is very much in sync with the rest of Europe because, of course, the Easter Rising happened in the middle of World War One. And everybody was having a very militaristic moment at that time.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Yeah, sure. And it was also a time, of course, when nationalist ideology was becoming a massive phenomenon, not just in Europe, but all over the world. Aidan Beatty, who we’re going to talk to later, told me that like a lot of Irish nationalists went and met with, let’s say, Indian nationalists, to share their ideas. And they shared like this kind of anti-colonial sentiment that was growing all over the world at this time, which is really interesting. Let’s hear now from Dr. Aidan Beatty. He’s a historian at the Honors College at the University of Pittsburgh, and the author of Masculinity and Power in Irish Nationalism: 1884 to 1938. And he believes that some of the key elements in nationalist thinking actually revolved around race and gender. Let’s take a listen.
Aidan Beatty:
I think by the end of the 19th century, what it meant to be a European nation was really bound up with the right to be a kind of an imperial power, in some ways. And the fact that Ireland was not just not an imperial power, but actually seemed kind of like a colony, made a lot of Irish nationalists really worried and really anxious. And in response to that, they started, I think, to project a much stronger image of what Irish people were like. That would, they hoped, refute the idea that Irish men, particularly, were really weak. So they started to project an image of of masculine power and masculine strength through things like language and sport.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Aidan looks a lot at the cultural impact of anti-Irish propaganda in Britain during the 19th century, which often represented the Irish as kind of a subhuman or unevolved. And caricatures of the Irish from this time, you know, very often depicted these bloodthirsty simian creatures with an abnormally high appetite for violence and an abnormally low intellect.
Naomi O’Leary:
So flattering. That’s a set of stereotypes that really lingers on very late. And, in the UK, the idea that the Irish are kind of stupid, you know, the thick paddies, it’s still actually a stock joke for some people, which is kind of a shocking thing to discover when you go there, as you know, an Irish person today. Back in the 19th century, though, the caricatures were mostly deployed to kind of discredit the politics of Irish nationalism and portray them as basically a threat to civilization itself.
Tim Mc Inerney:
And interestingly, Aidan notes that this long tradition then of representing the Irish has physically deformed. And I suppose, in the context of the 19th century, kind of unmanned or unmanly, you know, that this was a very big influence to the shape of Irish nationalism that was emerging.
Aidan Beatty:
It’s really prevalent in British magazines like Punch in the middle of the 19th century and maybe even up until the 1880s. And then it’s gone. And then in a sense, Irish people get kind of replaced in British racism essentially by sub-Saharan Africans or by Indians. In all of these cases, I think what’s happening is that Britishness is being defined in opposition to things like Irishness or Blackness. And in a sense, what’s also being done is not just a kind of racial representation, but always a gendered representation. Images of what it means to be a British man and a kind of upstanding, strong British man are always constructed in opposition to these images of of Irish deformity or African or Indian deformity. If we look at a lot of those kinds of cartoons, then you can go on Google and find hundreds and hundreds of them of the Irish or of Africans or of South Asians. There’s almost always a British person in the caricature also. And I think that’s quite important to look at how they’re kind of dual representations of both British men and Irish men or whoever the person happens to be that they’re kind of denigrating.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Aidan also makes an interesting link between nationalist counter representations of the Irish as a pure proud people and the popular zeal for reviving the Irish language.
Aidan Beatty:
At the start of the 1890s, you get, in some ways, a kind of a retreat from what looks like formal politics. So, a lot of Irish nationals get turned off by electoral politics and they turn to things like the Gaelic League. So the Gaelic League is an organization that wants to promote the use of the Irish language. And I think they’re really interested, particularly in the idea that they can travel back in time, but also travel forward in time, which sounds kind of obscure. But what I think they’re trying to do is by learning — or, they would say relearning — the Irish language, that they’re in a sense reconnecting to an Ireland that existed prior to English rule over Ireland. And that image of a kind of very romanticized Irish past becomes also their image of what Ireland will be like in the future. That it’s an Ireland that is not ruled by England. And there’s something really strategic about this, that I think lots of national movements — or, particularly, colonial national movements — do of saying, “You’re right, we are a deformed people. But we’re deformed because you rule over us. If we were a sovereign, independent nation, we wouldn’t be like this.” It’s a kind of it’s almost a kind of self-hatred that they say. Yet these stereotypes are real. We are really weak. Patrick Pearse, who’s very, very heavily involved in the Gaelic League, He wrote a pamphlet in 1913 or so called The Murder Machine about the English education system in Ireland, where he says the Irish are a nation of castrated men. Really, really graphic language that he uses about deformity. Like, we are a deformed nation. But there are ways to end that deformity. And the way and that deformity is by learning the Irish language, reconnecting with Irish culture. But a specific kind of Irish culture that is in no way Anglicized. There are a whole load of debates within Irish language circles at the start of the 20th century about which is the proper dialect of Irish. So there are three dialects within the Irish language. An Ulster, a Munster and a Connacht dialect. And really what that debate becomes is, is which is the most pure form of the language? This is one of the places where I think there’s a kind of an undercurrent of racial ideology here. Because really, what they’re saying is who is the most pure Irish person? So this is not really a debate about language. It’s debate about race.
Tim Mc Inerney:
So if you could describe the image of the ideal independent Irish man. What did they see in their minds?
Aidan Beatty:
I think they they see characters like Cú Chulainn and Fionn mac Cumhaill. They in some ways kind of construct very, very macho, very masculine images. I’m a little bit suspicious of all of this, because they’re taking images of what a British man should be. And just kind of, for want of a better word, Irishifying it and saying this is the true muscular, masculine Irish man. The founder of the Gaelic Athletic Association, Michael Cusack, writes quite early in the history of his organization. At one point said, “Last night, I had a dream where I was hurling with people like Fionn mac Cumhaill and Cú Chulainn. Those are the people that I imagined that I am playing hurling with at night.”
Tim Mc Inerney:
Now, for some Irish nationalists, this racial element was entirely explicit. In the early 20th century, it should be remembered, eugenics and racialized ethnic historiography were often seen as modern and daring and all sorts of ways. You know, famously, of course, W.B. Yeats went through a whole eugenicist phase. You know, you could consider this quote from the Gaelic revivalist Douglas Hyde, who would go on to become Ireland’s first president. And this is something he wrote in 1893 in a work called The Necessity for De-Anglicizing Ireland. He writes, “We must strive to cultivate everything that is most racial. Most smacking of the soil. Most Gaelic. Most Irish. Because in spite of the little admixture of Saxon blood in the north-east corner, this island is and will ever remain Celtic at the core.” So those kind of ideas about ethnic purity being some sort of gauge of Irishness, they’re very redolent of the more exclusionary nationalisms that were on the rise in continental Europe, for instance, at the time. Then at the same time, though, there is this huge push for inclusion in other sectors of Irish society at the turn of the 20th century. Irish nationalism, of course, was extremely bound up with feminist politics. So you have men like Padraig Pearse trying to forge a new image of Irish masculinity. But you also have female organisations, like Inghinidhe na hÉireann and Cumman na mBan, who were hoping to revolutionize the role of women in the Irish nation. Women like Maud Gonne and Countess Markievicz and Helena Moloney, you know, they were some of the most significant voices of Irish nationalism during these decades. And famously, of course, the proclamation was addressed very purposefully to Irish men and Irish women. That said, Aidan told me that the gender politics of nationalism could often be quite contradictory.
Aidan Beatty:
So in some cases, you find women who are very much invested in Irish nationalism and they are, they are nationalist women. So they have a politics that is both a feminist politics and a nationalist politics. And you find women doing very interesting things of, of basically using the same kind of strategies, kind of rhetorical strategies that nationalists use of saying, “Yes, we need to go back in time. Because before the Norman invasion of Ireland, this was a country where women were treated with total respect and they had equality.” So this kind of nationalist return to the past in the future will be a return to gender equality. Misogyny is a English importation. So once we get rid of the English, we get rid of misogyny. They might not use the word misogyny, but that’s that’s kind of what they mean. I’ll give you a very interesting way of thinking about this. There’s a an organisation called Cumman na mBan. It’s the women’s parallel organisation for the IRA. And there’s a lot of differing opinions as to why that organisation exists. Like, a lot of the people involved in it themselves are not clear as to why it exists. So you’ll find at some points women in Cumman na mBan saying, “We’re a women’s army. We will take up arms just as men do.” And very radically demanding that they be granted the exact same rights and the exact same responsibilities within the national movement as men. At other points, you’ll find Cumman na mBan being described as an organisation that exists to provide food for men who are fighting in the IRA, or provide healthcare and kind of first aid for men, really kind of pushing women back into very traditional gender roles. And sometimes you find women themselves saying that’s why Cumman na mBan exists. Themselves accepting that perception of women. And there’s a very interesting thing about Cumman na mBan’s uniform that I think really exemplifies this sort of contradictory nature of the organisation. From the waist up, it’s a military tunic exactly like a male member of the IRA would have worn, and from the waist down, it’s an ankle length skirt. A very, very conservative piece of clothing that kind of completely covers a woman’s body. And I think it Cumman na mBan and women who were in that organisation, or who are involved in Irish nationalism are kind of contradictory like that. They are in some ways very radical, in some ways very conservative.
Naomi O’Leary:
I can understand what Aidan is saying there, but of course we can’t judge people in the past by the standards of today. So, you know, the long skirts that they were wearing might appear to be conservative to our eyes, but I’m pretty sure that, you know, the famous female rebel, Countess Markievicz, described that very outfit as being short skirts, you know, quite well known quote from her. So, I don’t know. Anything that doesn’t drag on the ground probably counted as short back then. Remember, this was a time when women didn’t serve as soldiers in armies at all. So Markievicz had to invent a soldier’s costume for herself. And more than that, women hardly had any accepted role in public life at all. So what that means is that anyone, you know, any one of these leading women activists, they had taken a truly radical decision with their lives, because if you think about it, a choice like that could mean losing your chance at marriage, at the time, and therefore a relative safety from poverty, given the few routes that women had to earn money themselves at the time.
Tim Mc Inerney:
A major fracture in nationalism, of course, occurs because the territory that Irish nationalism refers to was, itself, fractured. In 1922, we get this bombshell of the Irish Revolution that was the Anglo-Irish Treaty. The island was split in two, and the southern part, became this really weird entity — a Free State — which had practical independence, but was still technically a dominion of the empire.
Naomi O’Leary:
We looked at this a few episodes ago. Some nationalists were pretty blasé about the arrangement, and others were willing to die fighting against it. And that led to a civil war in 1923, which has — still — an enormous influence on Irish nationalism today.
Tim Mc Inerney:
And the civil war also meant that there was this strange ambiguity in Irish nationalism after independence. It meant that the new Irish government, which had been fought for by nationalists, established by nationalists and was run entirely by nationalist parties, was relatively muted in its nationalist sentiments. You know, like, you couldn’t really, for instance, have an official Independence Day, and since a lot of people didn’t consider the nation to have been fully established yet. But, of course, this odd situation than in the new Free State becomes ten times more complicated when you looked north of the border to the newly created Northern Ireland.
Naomi O’Leary:
Of course, because many in this new UK territory, which was now known as Northern Ireland, you know, you had all these people — lots of whom had fought in the war of independence themselves — that were cordoned off inside a majority unionist jurisdiction, which was incredibly hostile to the nationalist cause and the nationalist identity.
Tim Mc Inerney:
And that actually takes us to our report, which looks at the complex ideas of nationality and nationalism that have grown up on both sides of the border in the last 100 years.
Naomi O’Leary:
Since the creation of Northern Ireland as an entity, a specifically Northern Irish identity has come into being as well.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Now that’s opposed to identifying yourself as just simply Irish or British. This Northern Irish identity only began to be included in surveys of identity in the late 1980s, but it has grown in popularity since then.
Naomi O’Leary:
Sometimes it’s seen as a way of escaping the sectarian trap of British versus Irish, and it can also be an “and-identity” in that people feel Northern Irish and Irish or Northern Irish and British.
Tim Mc Inerney:
It also means very different things to different people. But there’s one scenario which allows people to quite straightforwardly participate in this identity and demonstrate it. Where they can literally don the shirt of a specifically Northern Irish nationality. And that is, of course, in the sport of soccer.
Naomi O’Leary:
For historical reasons, the island of Ireland has two soccer teams, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. That’s in contrast to sports like rugby, where Ireland plays as a single all island team. A very kind listener called Patrick Conway gave us tickets to a Northern Ireland vs. the Republic clash in the Aviva Stadium in Dublin in November, and reporter Michael Lanigan went along for us to capture the scene.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Let’s hear from the report now.
Michael Lanigan:
It’s a windy night in mid-November, and I’m down at Dublin’s Aviva Stadium to see a friendly football match between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland. This is one of the few times I allow myself to use the old sports cliche, “more than a friendly”. Neither team is that remarkable on the pitch, but you’d never get that impression from how people hyped up the game.
Fan 1:
I don’t think very much has changed. I think even though it’s a friendly, it’s never going to be a friendly, you know, and that’s just from the deep rooted division between the both sides.
Fan 2:
I just think it’s very important that we’re Northern Irish and we identify as such.
Fan 3:
Because we’ve had to fight for identity a lot. So we probably would feel a lot more… We would have to fight for it a lot more.
Fan 2:
I suppose we’re very proud to be a Northern Irish football team. The Irish Football Association that we play under was the original Football Association on the island. And I suppose we’re just very proud of that, as well. The FAA was a breakaway.
Michael Lanigan:
To international observers, this is probably a baffling rivalry. There’s an All-Ireland rugby team. The GAA encompasses all 32 counties. So why is football any different? Of course, it wasn’t always the case. It’s only been the boys in green versus the Green and White Army since 1921.
Michael Lanigan:
Originally, there was only one football association on the island, and that was the Irish Football Association. It was formed in Belfast during the 1880s. Over the next four decades, however, that location led to greater levels of tension between the IFA and regional footballing bodies such as the Leinster Football Association in Dublin. Following the Easter Rising, and during the War of Independence, the Belfast centred Association was seen more and more as a unionist body, which failed to adequately support the development of clubs outside of Ulster. Then, in 1921, towards the end of the War of Independence, relations between the Belfast and Dublin associations soured. This surrounded a dispute over an Irish Cup semi-final game between Shelbourne FC from Dublin and Glenavon FC from Armagh. The match was played in Belfast. It ended in a draw, and this meant there’d be a rematch. The IFA promised that this would take place in Dublin, but they backtracked on that, citing unsafe conditions and a curfew in the capital as the main reasons. Instead, the replay would be in Belfast. Once again, Shelbourne FC refused and they withdrew from the tournament. With the Declaration of the Irish Free State and May 1921, the Football Association of Ireland was formed. It was only in 1978 that the IFA and FAI would come face to face for the first time. But this wasn’t Re-Unite. It was for a 1980 European Championship qualifying game between their national teams. Over the next four decades, each of their subsequent 10 meetings became less a show of abilities on the pitch and more representation of the relations off it. There was always a political backdrop that raised the stakes. First it was the Troubles. Then the Good Friday Agreement. And now, Brexit. Which leads us to their eleventh meeting of Dublin’s Aviva Stadium. By coincidence, the friendly was scheduled one day after the release of the Brexit draft agreement, and it’s two days shy of being the 25th anniversary of the republican north’s most infamous showdown in Belfast’s Windsor Park during 1993.
Fan 4:
I remember, was very hostile atmosphere in November 1993 when Alan McLoughlin scored the famous goal, you know.
Michael Lanigan:
This was a World Cup qualifier for the 1994 tournament in the U.S., and the Republic needed a point to go through. Still, it was the least of their worries. Three weeks earlier, to Provisional IRA, members let off a bomb in a Belfast chip shop, killing 10 people in total, including two children. In retaliation, Ulster Defence Association gunmen opened fire on a pub in Derry, killing a total of eight people. Amidst that violence, the Republic’s squad had to travel to the stadium under armed guard. Abuse was hurled at them all night. The national anthems weren’t played. And while they qualified, thanks to a one-all draw, it wasn’t a night remembered for that feat.
Bevil Dunne:
It’s Bevil Dunne, and I’m from Ballymore in County Westmeath. Yeah I started off, well I started following them in ’74. But I’ve been to, you know I’d say, we were into one in Windsor Park.
Michael Lanigan:
How was that?
Bevil Dunne:
Pretty rough. We couldn’t wear anyting, you know. I mean you just went in with your clothes and just kept your mouth shut.
Michael Lanigan:
At least in the lead up to the game at the Aviva Stadium nothing comparable was seen. There were a few shouting matches. But politics, identity or religious affiliations weren’t brought up in any malicious way.
Michael Lanigan:
And I mean, what’s the atmosphere like so far for you?
Fan 5:
It’s happy. There’s no problems. It’s a good friendly. It’s handy. It’s handy. It’s only across the border.
Michael Lanigan:
Have you been to these games before? Like the Irish…
Fan 6:
A football game?
Michael Lanigan:
No, no. The Republic games.
Fan 6:
Publicly? Three of four times.
Michael Lanigan:
Yeah. What are they like usually?
Fan 6:
Shite. Sectarian as fuck.
Michael Lanigan:
Really?
Fan 6:
Aye. You see nothing but IRA tunes and fucking… I don’t rate fucking republican tunes. Are you recording that, are you?
Michael Lanigan:
Yeah, yeah. No, I am.
Fan 6:
Oh what’s that. Don’t record that! Bad behaviour and all.
Michael Lanigan:
If anything, the mood was amicable. And yes, that could be explained because there was a heavy presence of Gardaí with support from the PSNI, but you got the impression that a little hostility existed. And that was a sentiment expressed by the Lord Mayor of Dublin, Nial Ring, who I caught up with outside the stadium while he was signing a few autographs.
Nial Ring:
It’s a great atmosphere around. I mean, obviously Northern Ireland against the Republic, is, uh… It’s a local derby insofar as there’s the two of us. I’d much prefer I was an All-Ireland team, of course. But insofar as we were playing one another, well, Ireland will be a winner anyway, and the fans will be winners because there’s a great, probably post-Brexit, post-Brexit agreement atmosphere. People are talking about, you know, where we’re going and better levels of cooperation, etc. etc. But hopefully a great game. That’s the main thing. Okay, you’re going to have the rival fans, but at the same time we’ve one thing in common: we’re all Irish. And I think that will come through anyway. Yes, you’ll have the banter and… I was at games against Northern Ireland where there was a hostile and vicious atmosphere. But I mean, that’s all gone. And now there’s a much… I mean we have 20 years of Belfast Agreement. There’s a whole generation who are here at this much who never knew any troubles. And that’s great.
Michael Lanigan:
You could say any fan was going to hold back on talking politics when one on one with an interviewer. Packed together in a crowd however, national identity came to the fore a little bit more. And this was clear as the national anthem started.
Announcer:
(Announcing Northern Ireland anthem. Crowds jeer.)
Michael Lanigan:
This became slightly more indicative of the mood during the first half. It was scoreless when the break was cold, but when I caught up with a set of Northern Ireland fans who were seated nearby, they weren’t talking about how disappointing the game was.
Jenny Brown:
I’m Jenny Brown. I’m from Magherafelt and I work in Tesco’s. I’m a supervisor. And to be honest, because we’re not in the Northern Ireland stand ourselves. We’ve received a bit of hassle ourselves.
Michael Lanigan:
Oh, Really? Yes. And so, what’s happening. Like anything serious? Or is it just…
Jenny Brown:
More criticizing. “Fuck the poppy.” “Fuck the queen.” I’ve even asked the supervisor could be moved, because the people behind us were giving gyp. But I suppose you’re gonna get people from both sides of the community here a bit better. Me, myself. I’m not. I’m in a mixed relationship, so it doesn’t bother me. Religion doesn’t bother me. I’m just here for the football, like.
Michael Lanigan:
I mean, then, I suppose… I’m not sure it would be a controversial idea, but looking at, say with rugby where you have an All-Ireland team… I mean, do you think that would be a good idea saying…
Jenny Brown:
Yes. Well I support Ireland rugby. Always have. You know, we’ve Ulstermen in it. And in fact, the captain, Best. He’s the Captain Ireland, I think. You know, that brought everybody in rugby together. It showed that it didn’t matter where you came from. They’re willing to let a Protestant lead the team. And I think it was a good idea. I think both sides probably should come together on the football, but football seems to have more religious issues than rugby does, unfortunately.
Michael Lanigan:
Another odd detail was pointed out to me by a Ukrainian football scout seated to my left. He said the political tensions were no different than say that in Ukraine and Russia. But he did have a question about one player dime in the field.
Football Scout:
I was surprised. I don’t know why the Northern Irish fans boo the number eleven from Ireland. Maybe there is something special, because when he gets the ball they usually, like, boo and something like this.
Michael Lanigan:
Throughout the game, this player on the republican side, James McClean, either received a standing ovation and cheers, or jeers and middle fingers. And it wasn’t for anything incredible. Here’s just the sound of him getting possession of the ball.
Michael Lanigan:
McClean, you see, was born in Derry. That’s if you’re a nationalist. He was born in Londonderry if you were a unionist. Either way, he’s controversial because as someone born in Northern Ireland, he’s chosen to play for the Republic. Even within the away stand, there appeared to be a mixed reception towards McLean, while scorned by half the Northern Irish fans. The other half for chanting this.
Michael Lanigan:
If you can’t hear it, they’re saying, “James McClean, he’s one of our own”. This ended up being one of the most interesting details during the whole evening. And it was certainly more intriguing than the game itself, which ended in a scoreless draw.
Jenny Brown:
Personally, to me, it should just be where you’re born. But I can understand why people from the nationalist community, or republicans, feel like they want to play football the Republic. But for me, it should just be where you’re born. And that should be it, truly.
Michael Lanigan:
After the match, I wanted to find out more about the James McClean Derry dispute by joining up with a few people in the away stand. The problem was spectators from the north were the last to be let out of the grounds and Gardaí were cordoning them off from the Republic supporters, but I managed to find a way through and joined up with a few unionist men.
David Hans:
I’m David Hans from Belfast.
Michael Lanigan:
The one i was interested in asking about was, I mean, the general view McClean. I mean, it’s been… It seems like it’s been a fairly big point of contention all night between either fan base.
David Hans:
Well, we all have our own opinion. And I think… I’m from the Orange community. Now, we’ve all got our own opinion. So, James McClean has every right to do what he wants to do. That’s his, that’s his decision. If he feels that way and he feels so strongly, why not? Why not? And Martin O’Neill’s come out with that statement, as well. I don’t agree with it, but it’s what he wants to do.
Michael Lanigan:
We were led in the opposite direction of the city centre, out towards Ringsend and into the Docklands. This was probably the tensest moment in the night. Anyone who walked against this sea of supporters was making a mistake. Either they were shouted out, given funny looks, or there was this true.
Men on street:
They threw a pound. One pound at us. And they started calling, us Irish citizens, gypsies.
Michael Lanigan:
But a few people deliberately went against the grain. They were holding up the Irish tricolour flags and wore Republic jerseys. They were from Derry, and they wanted you to know this.
Michael Lanigan:
Where are you from?
Man from Derry:
Hey, apparently the far end of up north. I’m a nordie bastard, apparently. I’m from Londonderry. Fucking Derry, mad bastards.
Michael Lanigan:
But on the flip side, I spotted a woman who was being verbally harassed for several minutes. Again, she was from Derry, but she didn’t want people to know.
Woman from Derry:
I’m from Derry and I was getting intimidated because they’re shouting that I’m from Londonderry, but I’m actually from Derry.
Michael Lanigan:
Because you’re a Catholic? Because you’re an Irish Catholic.
Woman from Derry:
Yeah, because I’m a Catholic.
Passerby:
He’s a fucking tout. He’s a tout.
Friend of Woman from Derry:
Trying to attack a female, while she’s by herself. Because of her beliefs, because of her religion. That’s just pathetic.
Woman from Derry:
I didn’t put it out there that I was. I didn’t… I wasn’t singing any songs. I wasn’t saying, oh, I’m an Irish Catholic. I’m this. I’m that. I literally was walking along, doing my own business. He actually approached me and said, “Where are you from?” And I said, “Derry”. I’m not going to say I’m from Londonderry because I’m not. I’m going to say where I’m from, at the end of the day. And that’s why then he attacked me then for it. Like, do you know, there’s no need for it. I thought our society had moved on. We have been working towards moving on from this. And, at the end of the day, for a minority of fans to make this into something that not, it’s ridiculous.
Naomi O’Leary:
I suppose that brings us up to today, where the very notion of what it means to be Irish is undergoing a period of interrogation. It’s kind of tied up with the achievement of relative peace in Northern Ireland, and as well what has been a period of historically high relations with Britain, which was sadly brought to a rather abrupt end by Brexit. It’s also tied up with the dramatic disillusionment and turning away from the Catholic Church that’s happened over the last 30 years. And, it’s also tied up with how much more, both wealthy and more diverse, Ireland has become as a destination for, you know, for immigrants now, rather than simply being sort of a place that people emigrated from. The two landmark referendums that we had as well, in which a huge stonking majority backed first gay marriage and then abortion rights. It’s been a bit like a national self-discovery and both are part of quite an exciting re-imagination of Irishness as something inclusive rather than exclusive.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Yeah, and I think like you mentioned there, those stumping majorities are really interesting when you consider this in terms of nationalism. Because, when we got those stumping majorities in referendums that were about protecting minorities, really, it was like we were speaking as a nation, because so many of us made the same decision. So, there, it was this, you know, strangely powerful kind of nationalist energy behind that. And there’s an interesting sense of nationalism behind this whole cultural revolution. There’s a there’s a feeling of reclaiming Ireland from the Church, for instance, from old systems of oppression. And there’s also this sense of being part — a very active part — of building a new Ireland, which actually looks a lot like the Ireland of the 1916 proclamation. Or, at least, in those more progressive lines of it — which now people often reference quite a bit in the context of this of this progressive movement. Equality for men and women, cherishing all children of the nation, and all that. What I find really interesting about it is that this very potent sense of self-criticism is part of that. And that was hugely influenced, like you said, by the centenary celebrations. People are very aware that this is a dangerous sentiment, and it needs to be kept in check.
Naomi O’Leary:
There’s also a sense of like what next with the referendums as well, because there remains a lot to do. You know, there remains so much that needs to change about Ireland. For example, only about one in five political representatives is a woman. So even though there have been these leaps forward, there’s also just so much work to do. And there’s perhaps going to be a referendum on the wording in the Irish constitution that dates from that kind of very Catholic conservative time, which states that, you know, women’s place is in the home. And there’s also a referendum which is due in May that I want to flag, which is about at whether to grant the right to vote for president to all Irish citizens, irrespective of where they are geographically. So that would include, you know, Irish citizens in Northern Ireland. It would also include Irish citizens all around the world. And I do see that as tied up in this, as, you know, kind of embracing not just minorities within the state, but also the wider, more global Irish identity. At the same time, though, as we’ve had this kind of progressive flowering in Ireland, it like in a way that hasn’t happened before. Ireland is, of course, not immune from the regressive currents that are really defining the political moment around the world. And we’ve had hints of that, like we’ve had hints of the old right and outright racism on the fringes of Irish society. Definitely get the sense that that’s increasing over the past year. There have been signs of it, particularly with, for example, the presidential campaign of Peter Casey. And also just one disturbing recent event, a hotel that had been earmarked as accommodation for asylum seekers was burned down. Many of the people who espouse those views supportive of those things online, they claim nationalism for themselves. You know, they claim they’re the true Irish patriots. They cast themselves, you know, as standing against a kind of a sea of global enemies, which often includes the EU, as well as other groups. Just to say that, like, OK, Ireland hasn’t had a nativist right wing political force and that’s due to its particular history. But that doesn’t mean it can’t happen in the future. And some would say that there is an underserved electorate that would welcome it.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Indeed, like for all you said about being progressive, we cannot forget that nationalism can be and is often really, really ugly. Like the nationalism is the reason that we see rival football teams killing each other in the streets, you know, because they’re wearing the wrong color like humans love to have an enemy. Nationalism is a really easy excuse for that. When we saw how much nationalism can overlap with racism in 19th century rhetoric and that’s still a really scary edge to any form of nationalism today. So yeah, like you said, we’re known by no means immune to that flavor of nationalism either.
Naomi O’Leary:
Absolutely. And, like, that sort of exploitation of a terrible past that really resonates with me, because it does seem like at the moment there’s a kind of a competition for victimhood. And people want to claim the most terrible victimhood they can, as though it confers on them a kind of authority or virtue. You know, when of course, you know it doesn’t. It’s quite interesting, like in the context of Brexit to consider Ireland’s membership of the EU and how it’s affected all of this. Of course, you know, Ireland became a lot richer with EU membership. It also freed Ireland from its past economic dependence on Britain. Now that Ireland kind of is one of 27 member states, it gives it a much broader scope for self-identity. Like, to define itself not merely just against a neighbour, but like as something more global, kind of something bigger. With this new kind of more inclusive idea of Irishness that we’ve been talking about, could it be possible for unionists and for those who identify as British in Northern Ireland to one day find a place where they could belong in in an idea of Ireland? That’s a question which animates our next interviewee, who is Sinn Fein president Mary Lou McDonald. As a woman of a younger generation who grew up in Dublin, at something of a remove from the conflict in Northern Ireland, McDonald symbolizes a break for Sinn Fein, which had for a long time been defined by its role as the political arm of the IRA, and by its former president, the storied Belfast Republican, Gerry Adams. I sat down with Mary Lou McDonald to discuss her concept of Irish nationalism and how she sees progressive ideals as being essential to it.
Naomi O’Leary:
Can I ask you why you got into politics?
Mary Lou McDonald:
That is a very good question. I don’t come from. A political dynasty in Ireland, there is almost a tradition of families that run for election. But I come from a from a family that is deeply political. I come from a family that would be republican by tradition. And you’re familiar with Irish politics and the cleavage of the Civil War, pro- and anti-treaty. Well we were on the anti-treaty side. So I come from a household where politics would always have been discussed. I have a mother who is profoundly political and who watches — and always did watch — world events. So I grew up in a household where it would have been very, very normal to talk politics, to agree — and to disagree, at times, very vociferously — on on political matters. When I say that my family are republican, we are a family… The politics of our household was always progressive and was always about Irish unity. We were nationalists in the Irish sense, not in the European sort of xenophobic, exclusive sense. Irish nationalism, you know this, Naomi, looks more like South American nationalism. It’s more about freedom and sovereignty. It’s not about exclusionary or supremacist politics. My politics has always been about two things about Irish unity, ending partition, national freedom and also about equality. I’m a feminist. I’m a person who believes in social justice. I’m a person who believes that Ireland can be a leader, although we’re small. I think we can we can pack a punch in terms of social justice.
Naomi O’Leary:
Can you expand on that a little bit? Why do you think Ireland is different in that way to many of the nationalist movements around Europe?
Mary Lou McDonald:
Because we were colonized. Because we experienced the hard edge of empire. Because we know what the imperial force and what imperial oppression brings. Because we suffered famine. Because we suffer exile and dispossession. Because our country has been partitioned since the 1920s. And all of those things leave their mark and have shaped the the Irish psyche in a really, really profound way. And by the way, that is not to say that we are perfect or paragons of virtue. This very, very ugly lurch to the right. This very exclusive, exclusionary, judgmental politics that we see rising across the continent could find expression here. So we have to be vigilant around that. But it’s at odds with our national temperament and it’s at odds with our our history going back many centuries, but also our very recent history, as well. And I think that’s what marks us out. But but by the way, I don’t think we should be polishing up our halos. I think everywhere across the continent of Europe and beyond, we need to be vigilant. Not to suppress dissent. Not to make any claims of perfection for the current political status quo. I would not do that. I would be deeply critical of many elements of, for instance, the European model as we have it now. But healthy criticism of those things in a dissenting voice should not be allowed morph into things that are really, really ugly and that are really, really dangerous. Not so much for political stability, but for the stability of of societies and communities and people’s ability to live a free, a free and decent life.
Naomi O’Leary:
I’ve heard from some UK politicians that they view it as slightly strange or ironic for Sinn Fein to sort of be in the position of defending the EU and arguing against Brexit, given past criticism of the EU, but also in general kind of concern of party with things like sovereignty for Ireland and things like that. Do you understand that position or that…?
Mary Lou McDonald:
Well, I do, because I imagine that that that criticism is raised by Eurosceptics across the water. And what they don’t understand and never understood is that that Euroscepticism is a peculiarly British phenomenon. And actually, it’s a peculiarly English phenomenon, if we’re to be honest about it. People in this island who are euro-critical by and large aren’t Eurosceptic in that kind of little Ireland insular view of the world. We’re not a kind of, you know their, uh, “Rule Britannia. Let’s reinstate our empire.” We’re a country that’s experienced colonization and everything that went with it. We’re also a small island, so were outward looking. We’re an emigrant nation. We go places. We place a premium on that. We like to to come back then hopefully, you know, to be given our opportunity. So there’s a complete misunderstanding. English politics and Irish politics are completely different. We are culturally different, we are psychologically different, and we move to a different beat. So I wouldn’t be surprised that Tories in England look at us and don’t understand us, because we operate to a different set of values. As to our position on Brexit, because people would say, “Well, what’s going on? I mean, you’ve been hugely critical of the European project. How is it the you’re, that you voted or campaigned against Brexit? Are you’re taking such a position?” I suppose there’s two reasons. First is just the reality that Brexit is, represents real jeopardy and danger to the livelihoods and to the prosperity, to the prospects of people across our island. Number two, Brexit is at variance and in contradiction to the Good Friday Agreement, the political architecture that we’ve built up painstakingly after decades of conflict. And thirdly, and more fundamentally, the Tory Brexit was started out really as a bun fight between the posh boys of the Tory party. It was not a clarion call to emancipate the working classes or to, you know, move the European project to a more, you know, two, a social justice agenda or something more explicitly premised on social solidarity. Far from it. Brexit is about power. All right. Brexit is about the Tories in England wishing to pull power back for themselves. Brexit is sponsored and run by people who regarded, for example, the working time directive, which simply, as you know, ensures a civilised regime in terms of the hours that the people work.They, they regard to that as an affront to their democratic values. I mean, Brexit, ironically — and there’s lots of criticisms you can make of the European project — Brexit is premised on the things that are actually good in the European Union, like the fact that we can all move around, the fact that we’re a diverse union. You know, it’s an insular, small… It actually couldn’t be more at variance with our politics. So anybody who kind of knows us — and who understands Irish politics generally, but Sinn Fein politics in particular — wouldn’t be a bit surprised for the here and now pragmatic, political, hard-nosed political reasons we’re against Brexit. Because we have been at the centre of building up the peace process, were against Brexit, and we won’t tolerate a hardening of a border on our island. But thirdly, the social values that drive this Brexit enterprise are frankly obnoxious, and obnoxious to our political view of the world.
Naomi O’Leary:
What’s your sense about when there could be a border poll?
Mary Lou McDonald:
That is a very good question. I was in London on Monday and we met with Theresa May. Now, the British government have behaved in my book really quite disgracefully as regards to Brexit. They have disregarded the very constructive proposals coming from Barnier and from the European side. And yet they haven’t come up with anything other than some stuff which was on the outer edges of crazy by way of their own proposals. There is a very small fringe within the Tories that are highly animated on the issue of the north of Ireland and the union and so on. And of course they have the DUP in the mix, too. And it occurred to me that some of these people, far from working to stop a hard border, I believe would welcome a hard border, because I think their logic is that that would somehow cement and solidify the union of Great Britain and the north. So I’ve said to to Mrs. May very clearly that if that is their thinking, that’s very flawed thinking. Because in the event of a crash, in the event of a No Deal scenario, in the event of the border hardening and the World Trade Organization rules coming onto this island, in those circumstances, we will demand an immediate border poll. If the British system thinks that they’ve got to inflict that level of jeopardy, damage, hardship and peril on our island and walk away and expect all of us just to take it on the chin, I’m afraid they’re deeply misguided. So it could happen, in answer to your question. That’s not how I wanted to happen, but it could be. If there is a crash that we’re not, we’re into that scenario and we need to be alive to that.
Naomi O’Leary:
To hear the rest of that interview, just head along to our Patreon page at www.patreon.com/theirishpassport. We’ll upload the full cut there.
Tim Mc Inerney:
So sadly, guys, that’s all from us for Season 2 of the Irish Passport. Thanks once again to Neachtain’s for sponsoring this season finale.
Naomi O’Leary:
We’ve already been busy collecting loads of really exciting material for Season 3, so we’ll be back soon with a really great set of episodes.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Also, if you’re a Patreon supporter, you’re in luck. We’ll continue putting out halfpint episodes during our off-season period. No rest for the wicked. So you can still keep an eye out for them. If you’re not a Patreon supporter, then now is the perfect time to join so you can get access to our whole library of exclusive extra content to feed your Irish Passport habit.
Naomi O’Leary:
So there’s nothing there to say but go raibh míle maith agaibh. Thank you to all our listeners. You’re the best.
Tim Mc Inerney:
Yeah. I think we’ve nabbed the cream of the crop with our audience. See you guys in Season 3. So slán everyone.
Naomi O’Leary:
Slán.